This appears to be one of the best and most appropriate comments. I also think Ris hit the nail on the head. To complicate things further, there are also identical twins — who fathered identical twins! The article by Elizabeth Shown Mills addresses this. She points out that terminology differs among various legal, scientific and cultural disciplines and has changed over time, so that it is necessary for genealogists to be aware of the differences, especially as they relate to the purposes for which our own research may be used.
The child of your aunt or uncle is your first cousin. Now If your aunt or uncle married that person then and only then would they become your aunt or uncle. But regardless that child is your first cousin. If they only share a single grandparent, they would be a half first cousin as the aunt or uncle you are mentioning in your comment would be a half sibling to your parent, and therefore only a half aunt or half uncle to yourself.
In turn, their child would be your half first cousin. John, I agree that the other OED definitions are confusing. Also they do not cite examples to support their alternative definitions. You can actually provide feedback to the OED and provide examples of alternative explanations or citations which predate their earliest references. The OED entry for half-cousin certainly needs updating and supporting with proper citations. Perhaps the article by Elizabeth Shown Mills could be shared with them. As a side note many of the definitions and citations in the OED were provided by a convicted murder and prisoner at Broadmoor Hospital.
One of their something or other [ fifth cousin twice removed or something stupid ] cousins married one of my something or other cousins.
The term can be used for all sorts of odd ball relationships. The law may not care, but we certainly do. The law should not be our criterion. Someone please shed light on this. I have this situation in my family tree. My grandfather and two of his brothers each married one of the three daughters of the same woman. Two of the wives had the same father, so the children of those two marriages are double first cousins to one another i.
The children of the third daughter are first cousins on the paternal side and half first cousins on the maternal side to the children of the other two marriages. I also have a case where four siblings on one side married four siblings on the other side. One thing about genealogy: My great grandfather, his brother a widower with children and their cousin also a widower with children married 3 sisters. It all gets very confusing sometimes! I have a person in my tree who married and had 5 children. His wife died, and he married again to a woman who had 3 children from a previous marriage.
Together, the new couple had 3 more children. So, within this family there are half siblings, step siblings, and whole siblings, therefore, half cousins, step cousins and cousins. Have a very similar situation in my family…. Now that was fun to figure out! Bob Franklin, If identical twins married identical twins, their children would show up looking like siblings genetically. Double first cousins appear in the same range, genetically, as half-siblings.
Patty and Bob had Andy. Beside biology, "quarter brother" and "quarter sister" were coined to define what OP is asking. How you describe that relationship depends upon which end of the relationship you are looking at it from. Mike Osborn January 22, at 4: Ann Turner January 22, at 6: Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on March 22, But they both have half siblings, and the half siblings have half siblings.
My sister had two children with her first husband, was widowed, re-married, and had two children with her second husband. None of these children EVER called another a half-brother or half-sister. They are brothers and sisters.
BUT from a genealogical standpoint, their DNA would certainly show that two had one father and two had another. We have to use the right terms in the right context. Well now, this article got me thinking not least because I have some, and am, a half-cousin, being Canadian with English roots. Or not, also having American roots. After my great-grandmother died my great-grandfather remarried.
He married a widow with children. Therefore the step-daughter married her step-brother. They had a daughter. The fathers of the bride and groom were half-brothers which would make the couple first cousins. The couple had a grandfather in common. They are buried in a cemetery with her parents on one side and his parents on the other side. By the way the last name was Smith and they would have married in the early s. Mostly this was a matter of straight translation with help from a native speaker from English, but when it came to the relationship calculator, all bets were off.
In other societies, the conventions are often quite different and I learned a lot using some rather complex charts before I got it mostly working right. Such as, in some places, cousins are just specified as 1st, 2nd, etc. A number of other differences as well, and of course in German some really long words!
My 3x gr grandfather married two sisters, the second after the death of the first. So their children are first cousins, right? My great grandfather was one of those kids and he married his first cousin, my gr grandmother, from the other line… My grandfather actually escaped genetic disaster and was a quite bright individual! Feeling like an Egyptian dynasty here! Actually they would be sisters and brothers.
Yes they would also be first cousins. Then their kids would be second cousins as well as brothers and sisters. Seeing the above comment of Lois Rekowski reminded me of a similar story. He is buried in the cemetery between his two wives. They had three daughters. He had children by both wives. Try and figure out those relationships. It actually implicitly acknowledges it. As far as I am aware, relationships such as: The context and the underlying concepts are what matter.
The article by Elizabeth Shown Mills that you referenced in this particular blog, is interesting and useful in making sense of kinship terminologies. Elizabeth Shown Mills wrote about the seven perspectives pursued within the genealogical field: Terms that are okay in one perspective may not be so in another perspective. More poignantly, she cited Kathleen W. Not that one should go about using all of these terminologies in addressing relatives especially. However, understanding the whole range of kinship terminologies could help one understand why for example, two people who are seemingly related in the same way to another person, may actually share significantly different amounts of DNA, with that person.
These last two comments are lucid and relevant. I have read all the comments and agree with most of them. It has been a fascinating education. However, I see nothing in the comments that disagrees with my original premise: Legally speaking, there is no such thing as a half-cousin. However, the term is used frequently for very good reasons in genetics and possibly other disciplines, as described in the quote from Elizabeth Shown Mills.
Perhaps the best summation was written by Ade Omole in an earlier comment: That usage also sometimes appears in genealogical scholarship. I do admit in this situation however, that the general consensus throughout the world is that half cousins are actually first cousins. All half first cousins are first cousins.
All first cousins are not half first cousins. There are lots of folks in both camps who are stubborn and narrow minded. To me, the reasonable position is this: So my great grandfather and his first wife had kids and their kids had kids. When my great grandfather had grandchildren, he divorced his first wife and later on had kids with his second wife my great grandmother after a couple years.
So does that make me half cousins with the great grandchildren of the first wife? Genetic Genealogists recognize this term to define a distinct difference in shared DNA of a half-cousin vs a full first cousin, and the difference in shared DNA Centimorgans far outweighs the presence of a term in any dictionary. Using a dictionary to decide the relevance or need to label the distinction of a genetic familial relationship is, in my opinion, pretty silly. Why not ask a geneticist?
The legal definitions that have been in place forever are all that matter. Most people do not like the truth. A first-cousin is a first-cousin, as long as there is one grandparent in common. These are important kinship rules that have existed for over five-hundred years for a reason. Hi my name is Bernadette. How am I related to him cousin. Half relationships are created when two solids separate and one half produces another, full to them, but half to the other production s.
Therefor, creating a HALF. And notice how they use the word HALF themselves. Other countries may have different definitions. If you have to get involved in a contested will, probate court actions, or something similar, the legal definitions will be far more important than the genetics. This forum is for genealogy — not a law forum.
Those of us educated in genetic genealogy would appreciate CORRECT information in regard to genealogy being placed on a genealogy related forum. Those that cling to what they thought was the truth just for the sake of being right stand in the way of progress. There may be no difference in the law with regard to half cousins, but it is an important concept in genealogy, especially where DNA research is concerned, and that is the issue here.
It also is helpful [to me anyway] to use this terminology to sort out the relationships between siblings in a large, mixed family such as the one I described very early in this thread. This is like arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. I get that, and accept it. What does that make them to me? If their mother and your mother are half-sisters, then these cousins are your half first cousins.
It seems odd that you do a genealogy newsletter but suddenly put on your legal hat when it comes to the issue of half cousins. There clearly are half cousins since they share only about half the DNA of full cousins. So there is a difference between half and full cousins. If anyone knows of a legally binding reference, please let me know. I also know that the definition of cousins are different in other countries and other languages.
In the case of terms describing various family relationships, it is highly probable they are the end result of litigation related to the meaning of contested wills, in proceedings where one set of relatives sought to take advantage of some provision that could be made to seem ambiguous due to a context that may or may not have been completely understood or obvious at the time the will was drafted, or changes in circumstances that occurred after it was signed, in order to have another set of relatives excluded, so that their own share of the estate would be enlarged.
How can I get more luck from dating apps? When should someone give up on chasing you? What to do for a long distance valentines day? What Guys Said 0. What Girls Said 3. If there's no shared DNA you're good. The difference between "nice guys" and "bad guys" Have you ever asked yourself: Most Helpful Opinion mho Rate.
Select as Most Helpful Opinion? What is the relatedness between these sets of cousins? All of the kids have a similar appearance, but the biggest resemblance is between two of the cousins rather than any of the siblings. I have been wondering that myself. My biological father has 3 female double first cousins so what would I be to my fathers double first cousins children?
My sister is dating a guy who's mom married our first cousin. The guy has a different father. So what would you call the relation? My paternal grandfather's brother is my cousin's great grandfather. In this same example, one set of my great-grandparents are my cousin's great-great grandparents. Are we third cousins 1x removed?
If your aunt's husband's grandchildren are not also your aunt's grandchildren, then you are not genetically related to his grandchildren -- the link is through marriage only, not sex. This is all wrong: That's why we all, save a very few, have 2 arms, 2 legs, 7 cervical vertebrae, etc. My great grandmother had my grandma. Then had another daughter to another man. What does that make my second cousin on that side? What is our relatedness? My maternal great grandmother and my paternal great grandmother was the same person.
In her first marriage she had my grandmother who was my mothers mother and then in her second marriage she had my fathers father. So what kind of cousins were my parents who had the same grandmother but different grandfathers. If a persons great great great grandparent 5th level ancestor is another persons great great grandparent 4th level ancestor. Are they either 4th or 5th cousins once removed? My husband may have a granddaughter from a previous relationship. We have to sons. How are our children and his granddaughter related?
If I know Person A and they are my Aunt through marriages niece what are they to me? If thay doesn't make sense, Person A has an aunt who is also my aunt through marriage so what is Person A to me? So if I have a child and a subsequent grandchild, and my brother has a grandchild, what are the grandchildren to each other? I can't figure it out?! My father's brother married my mother's sister; what is the genetic relationship between me and my uncle and aunt's daughter, compared with the children of the sister of my father and uncle?
She and I but not my brother or her sister and one of her sons share, what some people regard as strange, the ability to detach ourselves, where it it seems to us obviously rational and advantageous to ourselves or others, from the 'normal' emotional reaction to 'bad' events. I'd also like to remark that clicking on your 'Mollom' link has amazed me that 'statistical computations' can reveal what seem to me and no doubt countless others as seemingly abstract ideas of quality.
I shall see if the contents of your book are within my grasp. You seem to describe the ability to allocate emotion that is both necessary and appropriate to a given situation, while simultaneously remaining clear headed. I have found this trait almost exclusively exists among those whose "mindset" falls within the HFA region of the Autism Spectrum Scale.
Ever wonder why you see complicated problems so clearly when others are confused? I have met two people who are married to each other and their fathers are brothers,what does that make them. First cousins, because the daughter would be the niece to her father's brother, and he would be her uncle.
What if your cousin dated someone they had a baby, then they broke up. Later on the "someone" married and had kids. Would we be related? Through church records I found out that we are 5th cousins, - but doubly in the last generation, i. If we had only one set, our shared DNA should have, on average, been 0. I am sure that other factors kinship I don't know, measurement errors at the website, the fact that the amount of DNA passed down in each generation obviously differs law of great numbers , etc , matter, but it makes me curious about what the theoretical average shared DNA between us would be.
You can't simply double the kinship for 5th cousins, can you? You need to do something fancier, methinks. Boy 1's mother's cousin's grandfather's brother is the grandfather of boy 2's mother; how are boy 1 and boy 2 related? So my aunt is getting married in 9 days and we want to know this: My mom is my mom and she has a brother or aka my uncle. My uncle is marrying a woman who WILL be my aunt but My grandfather had 18 kids and his brother had 12 for 30 total.
About how many cousins would I have? Siblings of your nth-level ancestors are your great Furthermore, the nth cousins of your mth-level ancestors, and also the mth-level descendants of your nth cousins, are your nth cousins m times removed. That would make you your 0th cousin: Now what logical relations can N and M have to each other? If I am my maternal grandfather's granddaughter and I am about to be married, what is my fiance to my grandfather. My husband, person 1 had a grandmother, Bessie. Person 2 had a great-grand-mother whose sister was Bessie. What is the relationship between person 1 and person 2?
Third cousins once removed?? Very ineresting, i thought the removed was only when a devorce occured. Einstein would be quite impressed with your mathematics. If I got married to someones daughter and then that someone got married to my uncle what would the structure be? Skip to main content. Why is your great-grandmother great? Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on October 10, Your article appears to have been a target of plagiarism Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on March 29, Your excellent article has apparently been plagiarised here: Thanks very much for letting Permalink Submitted by Marianne on April 3, Thanks very much for letting us know, we're looking into it.
Analysis with various non-standard pairings Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on May 17, Relationships for descendants of half siblings Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on September 1, My great grandmother had six Permalink Submitted by Anonymous on March 11,